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Elysium, What are they?

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Fedomer the Opined
Vala
Brother Dominic
Sigfried Le Danois
Simon Molendinarius
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Post by Valance Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:50 pm

Elysium has meant different things in different games. What are the rule's we'll use in this game? In the setting section of FaF I didn't find anything about Elysiums. It also wasn't mentioned in the Lexicon section. So, first option,

1.) Elysiums aren't a thing

Now the founding of our domains' first Elysium is an active plot so I'm just going to assume that we don't take option 1.

2.) We take the new setting Elysium rules and try to convert them to our game. TLDR
A.) Only some people are allowed weapons in Elysium, Sheriff, Keeper Scourge their deputies and two individuals chosen by the prince.
B.) Elysium in neutral ground, no violence unless someone else starts it, no powers on others except in personal defense (Ageis is fine, Potent punches are not).
C.) If Elysium is violated and the violator is not punished within 30 days the Elysium is destroyed and everyone in the domain is disgraced... Losses all temp status for two months I guess.

Option 3, OWbN wild wild west

3.) Elysiums are a chill place to hang out and kill people. Lip service is paid to the rules, but the reality is that you can do what ever you can get away with, and even if your caught you'll get a slap on the wrist, such as losing status.

4.) Other, this can be anything we want. What do we want Elysium to be? Are they the central place where we meet? Are they special locations that we only use when there are dignitaries from other domains? Are they vaults to hold the physical things we use in the endless games of one up man ship? Are they the center of the Prince's power, the place where her law is absolute and carried out instantly? Are the sanctuaries for the nobles kindred in their efforts to have rights despite an oppressive prince?

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Post by Simon Molendinarius Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:57 pm

I like Elysium being the center of the social game. I like court on Elysium. I like being unable to use aura perception to tell if someones testimony is true. It means you need to rely on actual arguments or maybe even status (gasp, the horror).

I dont mind using any set of rules, but I agree that people that Elysium far too lightly. Sometimes things do happen on Elysium, but anyone ever caught doing it should be f'ed up.

As an example. When the first Masquerade started, one of the original white wolf writers actually was invited and came to the opening session as the Brujah Justicar. He played an excellent character and was mostly very genial. But I remember one thing really clearly. There was a Gangrel who destroyed a sculpture that was on Elysium. When the Justicar heard this, he walked over to that person and ripped his throat out. Justice done.

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Post by Valance Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:01 am

Was the Justicar still on Elysium? Cause if he was, his throat should have been next. The White Wolf writers never had a good grasp of consequences. Breaking a vase, bad. Killing someone that broke a vase, at least as bad. Lex Talionis means eye for an eye.

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Post by Sigfried Le Danois Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:03 am

As a side point on the topic of Elysium, i keep hearing people talk about the keeper and his role with the Elysium.

That is not how it works in the dark ages. The Keeper has nothing to do with the elysium. At least not any more then anyone else at least.

The Keeper is an advisor to the prince, in spiritual and political matters. NOT the modern nights keeper of elysium. IN fact it would be out of place for the keeper to eal with the safety of an elysium. That would fall to the sheriff likely.

So please, if you are having trouble remembering the dark ages positions, check the wonderful post the admin put up explaining each position. and remember the Keeper is not the modern nights keeper of elysium.

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Post by Simon Molendinarius Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:03 am

He was not on elysium at the time no. But I am not sure I agree. You are correct in one sense, but this crime is not simply destruction of a piece of art, it is destruction of a piece of art AND violation of sacred neutral space.

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Post by Sigfried Le Danois Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:06 am

two wrongs etc etc.

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Post by Guest Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:50 am

See, I agreed with Sigfried's interpretation of Keeper above until last session when suddenly a pair of NPCs dumped the whole thing on me. Marius was asked to show them around the University, he was asked to be shadowed by the Keeper of Avalon that they might discuss the Elysium, etc. Camden himself called for the Keeper by title the moment the topic of Elysium was raised. So, at that point, I started assuming it was my problem.

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Post by Sigfried Le Danois Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:51 am

Yup. I think Kable will be bringing us a ruling on what the standard keeper role is when he is rested up after all this fast paced boards action.

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Post by Simon Molendinarius Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:39 am

A few random thoughts on Elysium. Maybe this will be helpful in crafting an idea.

The big issue with Elysium is the problem between no discipline use, and the need to protect the site. There have been elysia where magic was openly used for defense and interrogation, and others where the rule was complete abstaining from use of disciplines.

I don't think it needs to be such a problem. Defense of Elysium should fall to a specific person or persons. Those people should probably be allowed to use certain powers in the maintenance of the site. Auspex for example. If an attack occurs then it is every cainites rite to defend themselves.

Handing out punishment is another issue. This can go two ways. On one hand the world of darkness is a scary place. People die. Why would there by a system that allows vampires to escape their punishment when committing even the most heinous crimes? That seems counter intuitive to the draconian nature of vampire. Executions can occur on Elysium, or perhaps a person can be tried on Elysium and escorted outside before they are killed. I do not see this as a violation. Elysium is designed to me a neutral meeting ground. A place where you know you will not be attacked or have your mind compromised. This does not mean a cainite can flout the law. If someone is tried through due process and an execution scheduled, there is not reason to allow that person to flee Elysium.

On the other hand, you may believe that the laws were intentionally designed by the immortal elders to make it very difficult for death to come through legal means. This might be a safety net in a society of creatures that are constantly plotting against each other. Perhaps the intent is that if you are caught you should be allowed to leave and set up shop elsewhere, rather than face death. I am reminded of mercenaries in battle. Mercenaries often will not fire at fellow mercenaries who are retreating. Once they have decided to leave the battle field they are no longer of consequence and as a professional courtesy they do not shoot because when the shoe is on the other foot they don't want to be shot at either.

Mark is right though. If there is no mention of Elysium in the Faith and Fire book, it is possible that the official existence of Elysium has not yet evolved. I know the concept of Elysium existed before the Camarilla, but perhaps it was less common, and only those strong enough to maintain one could do so.

This is a different government. The government of the Camarilla is a sort of patriarchal republic. Clans ruled by elder leaders who represent clan interests. Princes being first among equals. The authority of the prince is much less in some ways. In dark ages the system is Feudal. And perhaps that is all it was. Perhaps the only thing that keeps people from killing you is that you may have vassals or a lord who would object. Or perhaps armies that would seek revenge.

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Post by Brother Dominic Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:56 am

Given that there is, in game an Elysium established in London, shouldn't we be taking our cue from how that Elysium operates to some degree?
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Post by Brother Dominic Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:57 am

On the keeper role: presumably the court role shifted at some point between the dark ages to the modern knights to become focused on Elysium, maybe this plotline is representing a key event underwriting the evolution of the role of the keeper at court?
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Post by Valance Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:56 pm

What do we know about how the London Elysium works?

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Post by Vala Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:39 pm

Hmm this conversation sounds familiar ;P (because every game has this debate and often over and over. LOL)
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Post by Fedomer the Opined Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:53 pm

BTES didn't really, because the new rules cover it.

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Post by Vala Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:03 pm

I suppose since I bothered to post, I will post an opinion. I like the Elysium rules that were used in the late 1990s- Early 2000's in Buffalo. General safe passage, no violence on grounds, No abusive powers (yes grey area on what is too much..varied..often things like Majesty and Obfuscate were ok, but Dominate abusive...but varied on what character were in power). This allowed the social and mental character to have a leg up, since tge physical characters had a leg up ..everywhere else.

Ok truth is general safe passage was not always the general Elysium rule in Buffalo, but we had too many cases of people getting jumped literally 1 foot outside Elysium the first few years, so in a number Buffalo games the safe passage thing was tacked on.
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Post by Admin Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:09 pm

London's Elysium is held within the Tower of London, a veritable fortress for it's time. Vampires understand that Mithras is a warrior, and he is not happy unless he's fighting a war, and he has often mentioned great boredom with the lackluster choice of generals of the age. The main floor is the general meeting area, but below is a sand pit where he has often told kindred of status to settle their differences by right of battle. There are also cells where he keeps political prisoners or anyone who has earned his ire. Mithras has commanded that people in his presence be armed in case of attack, even in Elysium.

On the other hand, the Court of Love in Paris is just the opposite, weapons are forbidden and anyone caught with one will be shunned by the entire community. (lose of status) Discipline use is only allowed with special permission of the prince (with a heavy cost of boons)

It's really up to the baroness, however once the rules are in place they are in place until the Elysium is destroyed, either by word or action.

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Post by MacLeod Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:39 pm

Ok here are my thoughts on what Elysium is.

1) social center- The main hub where if not doing something all vampires of the location should be, Lack of atendance durring some type of even is a sign of guilt before being acused. you better have proof you werent where something went down.

2) A court of vampiric law- Any matters that can be acused can be made infront of your peers.

3) A showcase of crafts and arts- any craft be it from Toriador, brujah, or Nosferatu. the arts should always be part of elysium.
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Post by Valance Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:19 pm

Ok, so the official ruling is that Elysiums vary, wildly, but the rules stated when the Elysium is founded are a constant until that Elysium is destroyed.

Are Elysiums valued by vampire society at large? Are there soft or crunch consequences for an Elysium being destroyed? I've gotten the impression that Barons (or Baronesses) can't make them at will, but only with the permission of their overlord. How many Elysiums have been found in Mithras' lands since he took power?

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Post by Simon Molendinarius Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:27 pm

I'm assuming it is like many things in this era. Not every city has everything. Not every city has a market, or moot hall, or castle, or abbey. Having one of those things is a mark of distinction, and it brings acclaim to that town. It is a mark of success and value to society. Just a thought, ST opinion needs to be clarified.

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Post by Vala Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:30 pm

Well that means if there are not even broad rules like "no violence", you better do some heavy research on where you are going.

This ruling means an area could have 2 different Elysiums with vastly different rules if made by different Barons/Baronessess of the same region
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Post by NarrLiam Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:31 pm

This ST's opinion is that it's ya'lls Elysium, so do whatcha want and NPCs will snark or approve accordingly.  

I like the movie John Wick, and their assassin hotel, as an example of Elysium, if it helps in any way.

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Post by Sigfried Le Danois Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:37 pm

We appreciate that it is our elysium and we can do what we please, but we need a good understanding of the status quo before we can decide to go against it. If we just make a decision based on guesses then we will have no justification for why the npcs react in the way they will.

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Post by Simon Molendinarius Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:45 pm

Exactly. In fact, if there is no social president of benefit from having one, why are we even going to the effort? If Elysium is not for court, then the single most common meeting of all cainites is not even an Elysium situation. So, is this just a fancy social club where we keep cainite art and play chess, in which case the toreador should import a few fops to handle Elysium. Or is it something more?

Personally, I doubt that a non court based Elysium in York would get much use when everyone lives spread across Yorkshire. Those living in Hull or Richmond are unlikely to travel the hours it would take to arrive in York for a short bit of socializing.

It's only use will become for parties and events, and hosting dignitaries outside of Court settings. If that is what we want then fine, but I'm not sure if it being Elysium matters much.

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Post by Player One Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:32 pm

...As someone already mentioned on the Facebook incarnation of the group, this seems like a really great conversation to have IC. Most of the arguments could be ported directly into scenes via C&P without modification. :Z

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Post by Simon Molendinarius Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:45 pm

It has already been had in character, more or less, at least to the extent our characters can say these things.

Keep in mind that not everyone is involved in that IC discussion. Also, keep in mind that my character has personal goals that do not necessarily match my real life opinions or gold. Some questions cannot be asked IC, and the rest have already been brought up.

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