Reynard's Second Salon

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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Schade on Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:21 pm

"Ah, but whether objective truth matters to a particular person or not has little to do with whether it does, in fact, exist. The truth of whether or not there is war in Egypt may matter little to the farmer in Cornwall, but his indifference does not in any way impact the truth of the matter.

Permit me to demonstrate. I will make a statement which is absolute truth: "I am not omniscient." I justify the statement through the logos, thus:

Primus: One who is omniscient knows all things.
Secundus: Knowing all things would include knowing that one was omniscient.
Tertius: I do not know that I am omniscient.
Quartus: Therefore, I cannot be omniscient..."

He smiles faintly.

"I merely wish to be. Now, this is a statement which is true in all possible circumstances. You may suggest that my reasoning and logic could be untrustworthy, and that is true--but would necessarily entail my lack of omniscience. You may further point out that you have no way of knowing this statement to be true; after all, I could be lying about knowing that I am not omniscient. That is also true, and serves to illustrate the limitations of perception. Even a statement which can be verified to be absolutely and unconditionally true may not be verifiable to all. Nonetheless, it remains true."

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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Reynard Tisserand on Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:46 pm

Reynard laughs mischievously.

"Had I known that establishing one's own ignorance was the order of the day, I'd never have declaimed my status as a scholar!"

"But to be serious for a moment; I think your taste for the formal modes of argument obscures the truth which Protagoras had discovered. For your example of a war in Egypt provides precisely the case one needs to illustrate Protagoras's insight.  To wit: not all conflict is war. Not all places are Egypt. So what determines whether a particular conflict is a war and whether it occurs in Egypt? No doubt on the latter point we could consult a map. But what determines where the appropriate place is to draw the lines on the map? This is the result of human decision. We did not discover the borders of Egypt, buried neatly beneath the sand. Those borders exist in the fashion they do, precisely because of the perceptions and beliefs of beings like us and the kine. And whether the conflict is a skirmish or rebellion or a war, this too is a product of human definition. The difference between a skirmish somewhat near Cairo and a war in Egypt depends a great deal on whether those people with power perceive the conflict to be within the area they call Egypt, and whether they regard the conflict as rising to the level of a war."

"The deduction you draw does allow us all to conclude that there are things you do not know. Of course, I had no need for syllogism to conclude that my own understanding is finite, but I do not begrudge you your methods. It simply seems that the conclusions you can establish by syllogism will not detract from the insight that the greatest part of truths we deal in are fashioned, not discovered."


Last edited by Reynard Tisserand on Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Schade on Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:29 am

"The knowledge that one does not know everything is the beginning of all knowledge." Schade smiles faintly. "And you were perhaps overstating your own lack of acumen in matters of philosophy, ja? But this, too, is discussed by Plato: just as there is a distinction between hyle and morphe, so too is there a distinction between the doxa and the episteme. We may arrive at an approximate knowledge through our interactions with the sensible world, and as you say, the majority of the "truths" we apprehend are in this category. The majority, but not the entirety. Only through the rigorous application of the logos may we arrive at a point of knowledge which transcends doxa." He shakes his head. "Homo non est mensura omnia."

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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Reynard Tisserand on Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:46 am

"On your picture of the world, doxa in all cases chase after the truth, becoming episteme when they find their quarry. On mine, however, there are some cases where doxa determine the truth. It is these cases that I fear we overlook if we are too focused on objective truth, and it seems to me that they form the richer pool of truths."

"But we are not likely to settle this dispute this evening. Tell me, what brings a scholar such as yourself to Yorkshire? Do we lay claim to particularly rich libraries?"
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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Schade on Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:30 am

"Sire, that should be overmuch to tell, for the answer is a branch with many leaves. In part, I come at the behest of my Lord Ravenholt; in part, to learn the lore and history of these islands, which is both old and varied. While that lore is, perhaps, not gathered conveniently into a Library of Alexandria, nor again a Mount Athos...though I hear the library of Christ Church in Canterbury spoken of with favor...still, there is much knowledge to be gleaned, and there are texts which cannot be found upon the continent. Happily, my own studies run hand in glove with the duties for which my Lord Ravenholt has desired my presence here."

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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Count Morcant on Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:35 am

Morcant murmurs, as he continues to examine some sort of display, or maybe just the grain of the wood in the wall,

"The blood is true. The need for the blood is true. And the experience of tasting the blood, also a truth. But then, there are so many variables that could be added. For instance, did this human consume a large quantity of garlic before they were fed upon, and perhaps the Cainite who found the blood unpalatable has an allergy to such?"

With a bit of further investigation, one might find that the best explanation is "The blood IS objectively nourishing, but not to this Cainite, because of a heretofore unexplained variable."

"Or one might say the truth is objective, but can only be interpreted through a subjective window, which may or may not be tinted a various way and which affects our ultimate experience of the truth."

"Objective truth exists, and we can conceive of it through the subjective perception, but must still accept the limitations the subjective places upon us, which impose... mmm, call it qualifiers on the truth. 'The blood is nourishing, but not to me.'"

"Then again, I may be missing the tone of the discussion. I am a rustic."
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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Reynard Tisserand on Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:43 pm

"Morcant, Morcant," Reynard chides. "I thought I was clear that you're supposed to be helping me out, not aiding in the rejection of my arguments."

Reynard gives an exaggerated (some might say dramatic) sigh.

"But alas, I relent. At least for now. The learned men who grace the presence of my salon seem united against me on this matter."

"So, Morcant, what have you been up to of late?"
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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Count Morcant on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:02 am

"I confess to not being the philosopher others are. My expertise lies in the secret arts, and in medicine."

"Of late? Simply attempting to build my personal resources up so that I may be of service to all. Training retinues, collecting a personal reserve of coin. Nothing truly exciting. But that can all change in an instant."

"I must thank you for such an elegant, lovely salon. I do appreciate being invited. There have not been many such gatherings since I arrived in Yorkshire."
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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Reynard Tisserand on Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:40 am

"You are too kind, Count. I am saddened to hear that Yorkshire has been lacking in social life, but happy that I can do my part to rectify that."
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Re: Reynard's Second Salon

Post by Schade on Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:57 am

As his social superiors converse, Schade lapses into attentive silence. A scholar he may be, and an authority in his own field, but he is also a commoner--and not one to flout the accepted order of society.

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